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Leaders in Customer Loyalty, Powered by Loyalty360
Leaders in Customer Loyalty: Industry Voices | Dr. JR Slubowski of Kobie on Emotional Loyalty, Harnessing Data and Creating Extreme Loyalists
In this edition of Loyalty360's Leaders in Customer Loyalty: Industry Voices, we sat down with Dr. JR Slubowski, Vice President of Consulting and Research Center of Excellence Lead at Kobie, to discuss the state of customer loyalty, the evolution of loyalty strategies, and the frameworks shaping the industry today. With decades of experience and a front-row seat to cross-industry innovation, Dr. Slubowski shared insight into the emotional drivers of loyalty, Kobie’s unique approach to program design, and how brands can rethink the way they cultivate long-term customer relationships.
Good afternoon, good morning. This is Mark Johnson from Loyalty360. I want to welcome you back to another edition of our Leaders in Customer Loyalty series. Today we're going to be doing our Industry Voices podcast. In these episodes we talk with the leading agencies, technology partners and consultants in customer channel and brand loyalty about the technology trends and best practices that impact the brand's ability to drive unique experiences, enhance engagement but, most importantly, impact customer loyalty. Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Dr JR Slobowski. He's the vice president of consulting and research at Kobi Marketing. Welcome, jr, glad to have you back. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm good, it's great to be here. Jr, glad to have you back. How are you? I'm good, it's great to be here, Mark, Great to be here.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us today. First off, can you tell us a bit more about yourself, your current role at Kobe and a little bit about your background? Great to know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, absolutely so. I'm a VP of Consulting Services here at Kobe and I work predominantly with our financial services and travel and hospitality clients, although I dabble in other industries as well, and I also lead a research center of excellence that really delivers research-based consumer insights all about loyalty, so that our clients can essentially design and evolve their loyalty programs in the market.
Speaker 1:Okay, you kind of touched on this a little bit, but for those who may not know about Kobe, can you talk to us about how Kobe supports a brand's customer loyalty efforts? Can you give us a brief overview of what you do and what industries do you work in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, absolutely. So. Kobe really works to drive, to work with our clients so that their programs, that they're running, are driving enterprise value through loyalty. So not just in a corner of the marketing department but broadly across the entire organization, really leveraging loyalty to drive value and revenue back into the organization. So in terms of the industries we really work in, we work in travel and hospitality and financial services, as I just mentioned. Those are two of the ones that I tend to work in quite a bit here at Kobe. But we also do work in quick service. Restaurants, qsr, retail, entertainment, auto and even some healthcare are among the clients we work with.
Speaker 1:Perfect. One of the things that we like to get is an understanding of how people define customer loyalty. What does customer loyalty mean to you and Kobe? That's a great question, I think.
Speaker 2:Kobe really defines customer loyalty. What does customer loyalty mean to you and Kobe? That's a great question. I think Kobe really defines customer loyalty as an ongoing emotional relationship that a brand has with its customers. We're kind of pioneers in the emotional loyalty space. Basically, we created a way to measure it about 10 years ago. We've been leveraging that quite a bit. So we really focus in and drill on that emotional relationship that a brand has with its customers and that relationship really focuses on things like a willingness to engage, whether that be through repeat purchases or in more non-transactional ways. But we really emphasize the importance of understanding the emotional drivers of loyalty so that we can foster a deeper connection with the customer through personalized experiences, through shared values and more meaningful interactions.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, jr, you have a kind of a unique position within the industry. You kind of sit front and center. You talk to a number of different brands and a number of different industries. Customer loyalty right now is more important than it ever has been. How would you define the current state of customer loyalty? What are more important than ever has been? How would you define the current state of customer loyalty? What are some of the biggest challenges or opportunities that you see in the market today?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the current state of customer loyalty. I'm going to be bullish and say that I'm very optimistic about it. So one of the things that I think in our heart of loyalty study this year that we really learned is that consumers, even in a time of uncertainty where people are a little bit uncertain and uneasy about the rate of social, political and economic change that people are still looking to the loyalty programs and finding them as a beacon of trust, and trust is really critical to driving an emotional connection with a customer when you're a loyalty program or a loyalty practitioner.
Speaker 2:So, in terms of the state of the loyalty, I'm going to say that it's pretty positive. I mean, absolutely we need to be thinking about doing things smarter, optimizing the strategies that we have in the market today and also how loyalty tends to integrate into a broader enterprise value proposition and across the organization with other groups like CRM and et cetera. But I think loyalty is in a pretty good spot. You asked me that question four or five years ago. I might have had a different answer. We were in the throes of a pandemic, but I think we've rebounded and I'm going to say I'm pretty optimistic about where loyalty is heading.
Speaker 1:Excellent. One of the papers we do every year is called the State of Customer Loyalty Research Paper, where we survey usually around 100 different brands members of Loyalty360 as to what are they seeing in customer loyalty, how's their team look? What technologies or applications are they looking to consider for the current year? In our 2025 State of Customer Loyalty Paper, we saw that 64% of brands are interested in either updating, enhancing or redoing their customer loyalty offerings. When you look at that, what can a brand do? What are a few things a brand can do or consider if they're looking to enhance or update their customer loyalty offerings?
Speaker 2:So that's great. I think first things first, and I mean Kobe works in this space with a lot of our clients. It's one of the things that we do really well. But I think first things first, and I mean Kobe works in this space with a lot of our clients. It's one of the things that we do really well. But I think first things first.
Speaker 2:We usually like to talk to brands about understanding, trying to keep it as simple as possible, what we call the three Cs right. So it starts with understanding their customers, either through deeper analytics around the data that they're already collecting or through market research or, in some cases, both, so that they can begin to make sure they're mapping the right strategies and the right evolutionary strategies to the members and meeting them where they're at. The second C is really understanding their company. Especially if your company is a bit larger, there's likely a lot of stakeholders, a lot of silos, and we often go through a process in the beginning stages of our consulting, of a consulting project, where we actually do a lot of discovery interviews, and one of the things we really do with that is we want to begin to understand how aligned the stakeholders in the organization are around what loyalty can really do for them. So I think, as you're thinking about optimizing and evolving, that's a quick hit thing that you might want to just shore up right out of the gate to make sure that people are on the same page. In a lot of cases we find a lot of misalignment. So then we engage in workshops and strategies to make sure we're gathering all perspectives that we can and then zeroing in on here's what we think loyalty is going to be able to accomplish into the future for us.
Speaker 2:And then the third C is competitive climate. I guess that's two Cs, but the third stage is a competitive climate. One of the things we also have is a loyalty assessment tool where we look at over 200 brands in the industry. We regularly assess them on an ongoing basis and we really do that. It's a hefty lift when it comes to work, but we really do that so that we can keep our finger on the pulse with what's happening cross-vertically in the industries that we serve, so that we can help identify where those white space opportunities are. Where can we go when it comes to your next evolutionary step with your program, knowing, of course, that sometimes that next step will come from outside of your industry, at least in terms of what you need to implement and integrate as part of the strategy. So we really like to take that approach. But I think if you start ticking off those three C's and start exploring them, at least on a beginning stages level, it can set you up for success as you work to optimize and evolve the program.
Speaker 1:Okay, During the most recent Loyalty Expo, the 2025 Loyalty Expo, you had a presentation discussing loyalty biodynamics. Can you explain this framework and how it potentially reshapes the way brands should be thinking about integrating co-brands, fee-based models and partnerships into their customer loyalty offering?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, absolutely so. Biodynamic loyalty it's actually based on a term from the 1920s. It's an agricultural term biodynamic farming and the reason why I started to look for a new term for that is because we kind of feel, like at Kobe here, that ecosystems is maybe a bit I don't know if it's a bit overused or almost a little bit cliche at this point, and it also doesn't quite describe what I think we need to do. I think ecosystems can happen by accident. In fact, a lot of the loyalty practitioners that might be listening to this are probably thinking like yeah, I know, I've got legacy systems in place, I've got things that we've always done, that nobody's questioned, that are part of our loyalty program. That's when ecosystems tend to just sort of evolve without a real focal point or without a real purpose. And so we looked into what else could we call it? Because we felt like we wanted to make sure to bring back in that deliberateness, that intentionality and really that holistic set of inputs that we need to consider when we evolve a program. And we settled on biodynamics because that's again an agricultural term, so it's related. But all biodynamic systems are ecosystems, but not all ecosystems are biodynamic.
Speaker 2:And so, extending the analogy over to loyalty, what we really see is, especially with those program elements that might be considered outside the core things like partnerships or co-brands or even some fee-based structures within the context of a broader program when you really think about those things, those are the things that have the greatest risk of just kind of being bolted on without any real forethought given to exactly how they fit into the broader loyalty strategy, and then what you end up actually doing is operating two loyalty systems or three loyalty systems instead of having a real integrated approach.
Speaker 2:So when we talk about taking a biodynamic approach to loyalty, it's all about taking into consideration all of the inputs in a very holistic way and they being deliberate and intentional about the strategy that you're going forward with, focused on delivering, you know, an amazing, amazing set of outputs, you know, and keeping the set of outputs limited as well. So because it's when you think about biodynamics, it's all about getting the land and farming to produce the best possible crop that it can, we kind of see that as really analogous to what we're trying to do as loyalty marketers. It's about taking in a whole host of inputs and then actually really utilizing those inputs to be really focused deliberate about the outputs we want to drive.
Speaker 1:Okay, in the newest Kobe research project, your heart of loyalty research paper, you discuss the idea of an extreme loyalist with 59% of those People who are extreme loyal are spending 20% more than the average consumer and 27% are spending more than 50% than the average customer is Very important kind of in this era of economic uncertainty. You know how should brands be looking to cultivate relationships with their extremely loyal customers?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think the first step when you're looking at extreme loyalists is to work to identify them, and I think a lot of brands probably need to do a bit of work there to try to figure out who they might be, recognizing that often that equation, or often the definition, is about more than just what they're spending. So how are you using other behavioral data to be able to understand who they might be in your membership base, things that aren't associated?
Speaker 1:with transactions.
Speaker 2:What data are you collecting, and maybe a zero party data kind of way that could potentially even clue you into your extreme loyalists are you might? Once they're identified, then I think you can start to offer up opportunities to engage with them more and get them to engage others who aren't already in the program. So purchase, of course, is one of the best indicators, after the fact, to be able to look at as well, but there's also customer events. We know that extreme loyalists tend to be really, really eager to refer and to defend a brand, especially when that brand faces negative criticism. You might look at participation in online forums. In fact, some even said that they'd get a tattoo on their bodies of a brand that they were extremely loyal to, and I don't know that we need to go that far, but I think that that's something that we absolutely can look at.
Speaker 2:When it comes to trying to understand who those extreme loyalists might be within the base, and the way we really looked at it is, we looked at it across six main attributes.
Speaker 2:So we basically took the study around brand love, which is a Julia Batra and Bagozi, I think, 2013,.
Speaker 2:I want to say it was a study and we basically took some of the factors that emerged from that study and essentially designed a little bit of a quick tool to be able to assess it on our own front, and we were able to utilize that to be able to gain an understanding of what kinds of behaviors people would exhibit.
Speaker 2:But we looked at consumer brand fit, desire, identity whether or not you shopping there says something about you the degree to which they like or love the brand, the degree to which that they'll buy the brand even when it's not convenient, and then an overall commitment to the brand. So that's really what we assessed when we looked at extreme loyalists to try to understand the behaviors and the kinds of attitudes that they have, and so that's one of the ways that you might be able to assess them, maybe in a zero party way, but at the end of the day, if you can begin to try to understand who they are, either by the behaviors they exhibit or by the data that you're collecting about them, it gives you an ample opportunity to target some strategies at those particular audiences that can further grow your business, either through getting more out of them or through them potentially bringing new people into the fold.
Speaker 1:Okay. Also in that study it discussed and kind of showed that 70% of respondents agreed that they are more comfortable sharing data if they are in the loyalty program and the respective brands sharing data if they are in the loyalty program. In respect to brands, how can loyalty programs develop trust between the customer and the brand, the brand and the audience, in such an effective way?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good question and I alluded to this earlier in one of my responses to your questions, but I was actually I mean, I've been in the loyalty industry for well over 26 years and I was really pleased to see that stat come out of the study this year. It really signaled to me that, as a loyalty marketer, loyalty programs are getting it done when it comes to making the program the absolute best and right place for collecting data about members, especially in a zero party way. On top of that 70% stat, 80% said that they have strong confidence that loyalty programs will keep their data secure and safe. So when you factor that into a general sort of general feeling of distrust that I think the consumers sometimes have with companies, the fact that loyalty program stats are that high is again just signaling that there's an incredible opportunity for loyalty programs to be able to collect that kind of information. That's the notion that we talk a lot about emotional loyalty and the notion of sharing that data. It is emotional, so sharing is emotional when it comes to the data that we might ask for. So, but in terms of what we may be able to do, so we have a strong foundation of trust. We've established that. So what do loyalty programs need to do beyond that? Well, I think it's.
Speaker 2:It comes down really to two things to sort of make sure that the equation that they go through in their head when they make the decision to share really lands on the side of sharing.
Speaker 2:The first is being transparent about why the data is needed and acting on that data quickly, and so the notion of show don't tell applies here.
Speaker 2:Right, so you can tell a person oh, I need that piece of information because I'm going to do X. But if you never do it, that's going to create a little bit of skepticism from that person and they might not share information about themselves later. So you need to show the member how you use that information in an obvious way. And then the other piece is really around consumer control. Giving them some control over what data is shared and with whom is crucial as well, and giving that consumer the control is really critical, because if you don't and they feel like they're a little bit out of control with the information or they don't have control over it, one of the compensatory control strategies that they'll begin to use is they'll build walls up around it in their brains and it'll be incredibly difficult to try to get through those barriers in order to get that kind of information. So those are some strategies, I think, that really really point to the need to do that and to really bring zero party data into the fold.
Speaker 1:Okay, we saw in the 2025 state of customer loyalty paper that 43% of respondents mentioned collecting data, the right customer data, and being able to attribute it to that customer as kind of one of the biggest challenges of the normal, the most significant or biggest challenge they had with regard to customer data. You know, are there specific metrics or data points that brands should focus on to create a more impactful customer experience opportunity?
Speaker 2:So that's, that was a really good question and that's something that I know we've been wrestling with here at Kobe. And I think the data points they tend to vary by industry and I think they tend to vary by program. So I'm not sure that there's like a silver bullet lining that we could go with that. But one of the things I would really advise on is that you should focus on the information consumers are more willing to share. So that's where I would say to draw your focus. So find out what consumers are willing to share and then focus your energy there.
Speaker 2:We actually found in the heart of loyalty study that a really low percentage of customers, in some cases under 10, were willing to share information like information across apps or app usage data or internet browsing history.
Speaker 2:And yet the clients that I talked to and the marketers that I talked to are investing significant resources and trying to get that data.
Speaker 2:And it begs the question what if you redirected all of those resources toward just trying to collect the information that consumers are way more willing to share? So the answer is is you'd get to a point where you could collect things like information about their hobbies or their shopping habits or even their location. That would produce basically a variable goldmine of data that could feed not only your loyalty program and its efforts to have the loyalty program become a bright, shining star and a beacon of information for them as they want to try to drive their strategy forward and basically vary the customer experience and the levels of engagement among customers. So I, so I would say I don't know that. There's one key metric. I think part of it is finding out what your consumers are willing to provide by asking them and then working really hard to redirect resources to try and to gather that from as many as many consumers and as many customers as you can.
Speaker 1:Great, and what do you? What is Kobe thinking is the next big thing in customer loyalty?
Speaker 2:I would be remiss if I didn't say AI.
Speaker 2:Ai is probably something that's on a lot of people's minds at the moment, and I think it's really interesting because we've kind of reached that place where we're starting to see much more clearly, and it's coming into much more focus, how AI can begin to benefit consumers and the interactions that we offer to our clients, but also, in general, just trying to figure out how to use AI in more effective ways to make us even more efficient in terms of our own operations.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think information is easier to get now than ever before because it's not just an information dump, it's actually an organized set of information that comes back to you when you think about some of the LLMs that are out there and that just really works to reduce your cognitive load. And then there's some of the newer developments, like a Nogentic AI, for instance, that can go the next step and take an action based on what's uncovered. So it really has the capacity, I think, to materially impact the way consumers experience loyalty programs and loyalty in general with the brands that they love, experience loyalty programs and loyalty in general with the brands that they love.
Speaker 1:Okay, to wrap this up, any closing bits of advice or thoughts? What's next for Kobe as we continue to move forward through 2025?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I always have closing thoughts, but the biggest thing that I think this year, that the heart of loyalty highlighted for me was the notion that as loyalty marketers, again we're sitting in a really good place and I think we have an immense opportunity. We have the trust of consumers to willing to share information with us, even in times when they're uncertain and a little bit uneasy. But with that trust comes, I think, comes, great power right. So I would, I would love to see loyalty markers and organizations have as their own personal challenge start to really elevate the loyalty strategy up the chain so that they can begin to leverage the strength that it brings to the organization in a lot more positive ways and in terms of what is next for Kobe, we're focused on having those kinds of conversations with our clients absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mentioned already we are focused on some new innovations in the AI space, looking at ways to use AI to both understand emotional loyalty better and to drive it, but we're also hyper-focused on understanding the consumer landscape as it changes so that again, we can react with the best strategy-led, technology-enabled solutions in the industry.
Speaker 1:Okay, great. Well, JR, thanks for the conversation. It was great speaking with you and getting some detail on kind of, let's say, the customer loyalty and what you're seeing. You guys always have a unique pulse on the industry, so thank you for sharing Sure absolutely. And now we have our wonderful quickfire round of questions. I'd like to keep it to a few word or short phrase. Answers to the video will be a good time. If you look at your work life, how would you describe your work life?
Speaker 2:Manageable chaos.
Speaker 1:If you have a day or a week off from work, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:I just installed a new pool, so I'm probably relaxing by the pool with a beverage in my hand. I think that would be a wonderful thing.
Speaker 1:There we go. If you could live in any city, in any country, where would you live?
Speaker 2:I have so many favorite cities, but I will say that this week it's probably let's go Charleston or New Orleans.
Speaker 1:Okay, if you go back to school, what would you study?
Speaker 2:I have been back to school a lot in my life, Uh, so if I ever tried to do it again, the people that care about me would probably murder me. Uh, but, uh, but. If I were to go back, uh, I would hands down. I would study wine, so it's a passion of mine. Uh, yeah. I would I would go study on ology, so okay great.
Speaker 1:Is there a facet of your job that you would like to know maybe a little bit less about?
Speaker 2:A little bit less about definitely the mundane administrative stuff. I can appreciate doing it when I'm absolutely brain dead, but most of the time that's not the day, that's not where my head's at on any given day when I have to do it. So some of the mundane administrative stuff, for sure.
Speaker 1:What motivates?
Speaker 2:you when tackling challenges at Kobe, the ability to engage with, I think, one of the smartest teams in the industry. I've worked at a lot of loyalty companies and the people here at Kobe have a natural curiosity and a natural intelligence that makes collaboration easy to the point where I don't think there isn't a challenge we can't overcome.
Speaker 1:And we skipped a question here. What facet of your job would you like to know, maybe a little bit more about?
Speaker 2:Well, I'd actually love to know what makes loyalty marketers tick themselves and, perhaps even more importantly, some of the organizational hurdles that they face. It's been a minute since I've been on the client side, so I'd love to get a little bit more knowledge around that to help them navigate it as their trusted partner.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what do you draw inspiration from? Kind, of, what lights your fire?
Speaker 2:Knowledge. I mean, I know lifelong learner is kind of a cliche term, but it really does apply. So anything that really stokes my curiosity and allows me to tap into learning really, really inspires me.
Speaker 1:Okay, and do you have a favorite sport or hobby?
Speaker 2:So I love to play tennis. I'm a tennis player, I played in college. I obviously love wine, as I already alluded to, and, along with that, cooking, food, entertaining, and I would be remiss if I didn't mention my two great Pyrenees. I have two great big fluffy white dogs that are some of my favorite. Tend to accompany me on my favorite pastimes.
Speaker 1:Okay, great JR thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us today. It was great getting to know a little bit more about you, but also hearing more about how Kobe continues to set the bar in regard to how they are addressing the opportunities for brands in customer channel and brand loyalty, and we look forward to learning more from you and the team throughout the remainder of 2025. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Excellent, and I also want to thank everyone for tuning in to our Industry Voices podcast. If you haven't already, please subscribe to our Leaders in Customer Loyalty podcast and follow Loyalty360 on YouTube and LinkedIn. The links are provided below. Until then, have a wonderful day.